A Divided Homeland

Quang Pham [00:00:00] My full name is Quang Pham. Q-U-A-N-G P-H-A-M. Quang Pham. 

Interviewer [00:00:06] And where were you born? 

Quang Pham [00:00:08] I was born in Thanh Hóa, a province of the north part of the central part of Vietnam. 

Interviewer [00:00:20] And when you were born, was it into a big family? Do you have a lot of siblings? 

Quang Pham [00:00:28] Yes. Yes.  

Interviewer [00:00:29] How many? 

Quang Pham [00:00:32] Well, it's kind of make a story short and become long because my father had the first wife. And he has six children and all of them are girls. And, you know, according to the Vietnamese culture, they wanted to have a boy. And that's why my father, at that time was legal, to marry to second wife. So I was born to my mother that it was a his my father's second wife. And I am the only boy that was born. So that that's that's the a short story become long. 

Interviewer [00:01:24] May I ask what year you were born? 

Quang Pham [00:01:26] 1942. 

Interviewer [00:01:27] 1942. So tell me about what Vietnam was like growing up for you. 

Quang Pham [00:01:34] At the time I was born, it's a transitional between the nationalist government, and the share authority with a friend government. So at that time, you know people of course speak Vietnamese, but the official language is either in Chinese or in French. So my birth certificate is both in French and a little bit in Chinese and then some in Vietnamese, because my father, he work at the like, the birth registration office of the province of Thanh Hóa and that's why. 

Interviewer [00:02:35] Did you grow up speaking French or Chinese or just Vietnamese? 

Quang Pham [00:02:38] I learn at that time I stay there in Taiwan until, like, ten years old. And I left Thanh Hóa to Hanoi because at that time the communists took over. The part of the central part of Vietnam. So, I at the time I was born, I didn't know, but I think it's still under nationalist government. But later on. Maybe after 1945 in like, like. 1946. The Communist, you know, Ho Chi Minh took it over that part.  Not the whole Vietnam country, but just that part. So of course, you know, I learned Vietnamese and that's all. And they don't even have the, public school. So my family, have a preceptor. I taught me in, in Vietnamese, of course, and some in Chinese. And a little bit of French. So it's cut up everything together. Excuse me. 

Interviewer [00:04:00] What? Do you remember your childhood being like in Vietnam? 

Speaker 1 [00:04:06] My family is rather well-to-do Family. So I stay most of the time, you know, at home and the preceptors, you know, come to my house to teach me. So I stay home. Then the communist started forming or establish some of the young groups almost like Boy Scout, but they didn't call Boy Scout. They call Ho Chi Minh Young group or something. And they normally when I'm at- during a weekend, they went in parade and they use music and everything else and try to attract some of the young persons. 

Interviewer [00:05:01] And did you understand what was going on at that time? 

Quang Pham [00:05:05] A little bit. Because most of the time they promote the image of Ho Chi Minh and everything they taught. They taught to those young folks about Ho Chi Minh and the Communist Party, and they say that the Communist Party will attack the independence of the country against their friends. So then, my family didn't want me to go with that, what they call rat youth or something, you know, rat youth. But I saw them, you know, looking around, and that sort of thing. But, I want to say a little bit about, you know, the situation, the condition of living at that time. Most of the family in Vietnam at that time is using agricultural. You know. Raisin, cows, buffalo, and, and that sort of thing. But for some reason, the communists Vietnam afraid of the operation from the French. So then, oh no, the highway and not highway, but some country - 

Interviewer [00:06:26] Major road or? 

Quang Pham [00:06:26] Major road. They, they dug a hole along the road because they said that they would defend from the tank or the truck carrying the soldiers against them. So they only mean and transportation at that time, he said by bicycle. Plus the fact that there's no car, no automobile, no gas. So we use bicycle or walking. So everybody using that means and that's all. So we have to walk like if we want to go to the temple, it may take us a half an hour. You know, it says it may be half a mile away or maybe a mile away. So that's that's the situation. 

Interviewer [00:07:19] And was your family in agriculture, too? 

Quang Pham [00:07:23] Yes. More or less. We have- my mother have a lot of land. And they gave to some of the- what they call a sort of contract that, they know that, they work in the field, and they harvest and they get a portion of the, of the rice. But, you know, I don't have to do anything because he's so young, and my mother and father didn't have to do much of anything. But we still have some field around. But we did not work on that. But anytime the harvest season, we have a big yard in in in the, like a backyard. But it's, concrete backyard. So any time they harvest the rice, they bring it to that yard and they start, you know, separate the rice from the stock. So it's it's kind of fun to see that kind of thing. 

Interviewer [00:08:37] So you're the only boy with your mom. 

Quang Pham [00:08:40] Yes. 

Interviewer [00:08:41] Were there sisters? 

Quang Pham [00:08:43] The sister at the time they lived in the city itself. Its a separate from us because he has two wives. 

Interviewer [00:08:54] Okay. 

Quang Pham [00:08:55] So, the other one stay with them. However, after a while like until 1947, 1948. And the communists at that time, they have the strategy they call scorched earth. 

Interviewer [00:09:15] Okay. 

Quang Pham [00:09:16] They try to erase everything, even my father's home was erased and the whole city was erased. 

Interviewer [00:09:26] When you say erased, what do you mean? 

Speaker 2 [00:09:29] They use not the bulldozer because they don't have it, but they destroy. 

Interviewer [00:09:34] Destroy the homes? 

Quang Pham [00:09:34] Destroy the whole thing. Because they said they don't want to have those things anymore. And you know that they, they call it scorched earth. That is a- 

Interviewer [00:09:46] Scorched earth. 

Quang Pham [00:09:47] Yeah. That's what they believe in. The communism tell them to do that because those they call imperative kind of bourgeoisie class they don't like it. So they destroy everything. 

Interviewer [00:10:06] Was your family's home destroyed? 

Quang Pham [00:10:08] My father's home destroy. 

Interviewer [00:10:10] Yeah. 

Quang Pham [00:10:10] Not our family. 

Interviewer [00:10:12] Okay. Cause you lived in a different? 

Quang Pham [00:10:14]  In a suburb. And so they don't touch us at that time. Probably in 1947 or 48. So. Oh, no. They, they the first wife and my six sister have to move to this. 

Interviewer [00:10:31] Your home? 

Quang Pham [00:10:31] To my home. So we have a big family then. 

Interviewer [00:10:35] Okay.

Quang Pham [00:10:36] Because I don't know what they tried to do, but they destroy one of that, and they even digged, the road. So the other thing of transportation is a walking or bicycle and that's all. 

Interviewer [00:10:51] So when the war between North and South started in the 1950s, how old were you? Were you a teenager?

Quang Pham [00:10:59] I was born in 1942. 

Interviewer [00:11:04] So you must've been a teenager. 

Quang Pham [00:11:06] Right at that time. I don't know what year, but somewhere between 1945 and 1950, I can say 1947. The Communist Vietnam tried to take over the whole country. But they did not. They could not. So the only occupy a part of the central part of Vietnam. Maybe 4 or 5 provinces. And at that time, they still fighting in the North like in Hanoi and Hanoi still under the nationalist government and some other provinces. Though theres fighting between the nationalist with the support of French army against communism in the North. In our area that's what they call region four. The region four. They divided country into, you know, 6 or 7 regions. So region four is our region. So including Thanh Hóa, Nghệ An, Hà Tĩnh. That is a core of the communism in Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh was born in Nghẹ An. And a lot of basic cavalry is from those three provinces though Thanh Hóa, Nghệ An, Hà Tĩnh is the region four is a core of the communism. So the fighting still going on in the north but there's not yet start in the south because the south the French have a strong defense now in the south. So they they could not touch that, but they start doing some fighting. Not the whole thing, but du kích (guerilla warfare) you know, in the, like, Quảng Nam, Quảng Ngãi, and a part of Huế. But in Quảng Nam, Quảng Ngãi they start some fighting but at a much smaller scale. But they use du kích. I don't know what what do we translate into English? 

Interviewer [00:13:39] And I think, by 1954, 56 the war officially started. 

Quang Pham [00:13:47] The war kinda weak and divide the history of all the fighting in Vietnam into separate part. The first part in 1945 to 1954. So Ho Chi Minh more or less took over a part of Vietnam since 1946. So then, they're fighting between the French government, the nationalist government, support by  French in the north. So finally they have the Geneva Convention. That is in July of 1954.

Interviewer [00:14:36] It was a temporary divide. 

Quang Pham [00:14:38] Yeah. Temporary divide. So that's a first part ended at that time but the South still, you know, France and the free country. So, let me think.

Interviewer [00:14:55]  Yeah, I think the temporary divide than they were going to have a Democratic voting system, but that didn't happen 

Quang Pham [00:15:00] Yeah, the north, the north, they gave it to, the communist Vietnam. And the south was still a nationalist. So the first part and then the second part is 1954.  

Interviewer [00:15:15] 56?

Quang Pham [00:15:16] In 1954 to 1975. That is that nationalists of Vietnam, a South Vietnam. But the first part is only talking the North and region four. And they got that from the 17 parallel up north that belong to the Communist. And I don't know that you want to hear about it. Its got a long story. 

Interviewer [00:15:51] No, I want to hear about from 1954 and on. You must have been about how old? Ten? Twelve? 

Quang Pham [00:16:07] In 1954 why I well, I was 12 years old. 

Interviewer [00:16:09] 12 years old. 

Quang Pham [00:16:11] But one of the very event that I always memorize. 1952, the communist Vietnam start having the land reform. Okay. The land reform is essentially, first of all, they tax. They said that they have to collection the tax in 1945. So after the 1945 to 1950, that would be five years. So the tax is very heavy. So my family consider considered to be one of the landlord. Not like in China, but we do have some land like, and we contract that to- some people to do the work for us and we do some of that. So after taxing we have to pay a lot of money and then at that time, the monetary system in Vietnam is collapsed. So, you know, what they call the cow drawn carriage, xe bò, that's what they call. We have to stack on the paper money up for communist who is now communist. The full like almost like a pickup truck. 

Interviewer [00:17:59] All the money.  

Quang Pham [00:18:00] That is drawn by by by cows. But they said no, it's not enough. Why they want to steal our property? Because I whatever you give it to them they say that it's not enough. Even, you know, 2 or 3 that pickup truck full of money. So they said, if you don't have enough money to pay us, we'll come by your house and make an inventory of your furniture, or the clock, some antique or whatever it is. And they did come late and they took some of the cavalries there. And they list like 100 items. They said that, well, in certain time or certain months that you don't pay will come by and we'll pick them up. So at that time I was only like ten years old, 1951 or 52. I start, you know, like cursing them because we don't know somebody come in and try to steal our property from us. So after that time we know something wrong. We cannot stay there. And we cannot survive with that kind of regime. So right after that they start having they call đấ tố (publicly denounce) they mean that they have guerrilla tactics. They set it up, you know, in the countryside and the cavalries become like their judge and they and get on the people in that area and they said, these are the guy, the landlord, they deserve to die. And they will- somebody curse the landlord. Some of them, you know, they use something to beat the landlord. And even worse, I didn't see it, but that is a real story. They will- 

Interviewer [00:20:14] Is your dad captured in that? 

Quang Pham [00:20:16] No. 

Interviewer [00:20:17] No. 

Quang Pham [00:20:17] No. 

Interviewer [00:20:18] That's good. That's good. 

Quang Pham [00:20:20] Yeah. But anyway some of them they bury them alive. You say they dig a hole and they start put the dirt out and before that they cost them a lot everything else. So we heard about it. 

Interviewer [00:20:37] Okay. 

Quang Pham [00:20:38] My family heard about it. I said no. We cannot survive with that. And even worse for the relatives or the children of the landlord. They are not allowed to go to school. So they want to have this guy out of society. They want him to die and that's why. So my parents think that the only way that we have to leave. Because if we be there. My parents would be buried alive and I could not go to school. And that's why we make once and for all. Just like the boat people later on. We go from Thanh Hóa to Hanoi. That's about maybe 200 miles or so. But at that time everything is bicycle and so. 

Interviewer [00:21:39] Did you leave everything behind then? 

Quang Pham [00:21:43] Yeah. 

Interviewer [00:21:44] Just some personal belongings? 

Quang Pham [00:21:45] With just some personal belongings. A couple of ounce of gold because you don't have- you cannot carry paper money with you. So we fled Tang Hoa to Hanoi. 

Interviewer [00:22:03] So is that going north? 

Quang Pham [00:22:05] Going north. 

Interviewer [00:22:06] Okay. 

Quang Pham [00:22:06] Is it very dangerous because at the time, like embarkation, bartery. Like  betweenThanh Hóa and Thái Bình, that's some province nearby. So the Thái Bình still under the nationalist and French, but from Thanh Hóa belong to communist Vietnam. And demarcation line it's not clearly defined, but it is there. So it's very dangerous to cross that. So we were like the country people, like the peasant, you know. Just like we go to work in the field. So everybody have to do that, and we get on the boat and early in the morning we went through that demarcation area. And so there's like a river, a small river. And one side is the Communist guard and the other side is Nationalist Guard. So anywhere going that could be killed by both side, but we lucky enough and they thought that we are local people going to the work in the field and we were pass over that and then we went to Nam Định. And from there we went to Hanoi. We stopped by to area called Phát Diệm. Phát Diệm still belong this north part of Thanh Hóa province. And that is a very strong Catholic area. And the Việt Cộng could not get into that. And one of the archbishop in that area is Lê Hữu Từ. He fought both against France and the communist regime. But anyway, we stopped by Phát Diệm before we went to Nam Định. And then from there we went to Hanoi. So that is the first time. 

Interviewer [00:24:21] The first migration for you. 

Quang Pham [00:24:21] Migration in the country and become a refugee in my own country. 

Interviewer [00:24:27] Yeah. Did you have family in Hanoi at all? Like others. 

Quang Pham [00:24:31] We have some friends. 

Interviewer [00:24:32] Friends? 

Quang Pham [00:24:32] Yeah. My mother has some friends. Has some business in Hanoi. And then, you know, second time, you know, we were going to talk about it later, but, we are lucky enough that we not actually boat people, but we get out of the country by the U.S. Air Force flight. So that would be the second exodus for us, you know, for our family and yes. That's terrible. So I know that I- I was very sympathized with the immigrants right now in this country all over the world because of the political system, economic, political, or something. They cannot survive in their own country. They have to leave the country. 

Interviewer [00:25:31] You know from experience. 

Quang Pham [00:25:33] Yes. And this is terrible. And so they call it the century of refugees all around the world. And right now they make it a political issue everywhere whether they can open the border for to save those people while they stop them from them going. So it is very is dilemma. 

Speaker 2 [00:26:01] Yeah. 

Quang Pham [00:26:02] For everybody. 

Interviewer [00:26:04] Yes. So when you were in Hanoi and did you get drafted for the war at all? 

Quang Pham [00:26:11] You know, at the time, I was already twelve years old. 

Interviewer [00:26:13] No, no, no. When the war between north and south officially started. 

Quang Pham [00:26:16] Yeah. And then let me, continue on. The time I stay in Hanoi is only for quite a year, not quite a year. So we get some help from my mother's friend and we had a small business at the time, and we went to a school, public school and that first time I went in as the third grader. 

Interviewer [00:26:44] Like in a classroom because you were learning at home, right?

Quang Pham [00:26:46] In the classroom. Yeah. Yeah. And it is kind of very funny. I still remember they have some course work. At the time, they said that you had to do some manual work, painting and that sort of thing. And they said that everybody had to do that. But this first time I faced it at a school system, I didn't know what it is. So they said that you have to buy some color paper and everything, you know, put to here, put there, and draw something. But I didn't know and my mother didn't know either. So we bought instead of some the color paper, but we bought some of those, what they call like thổ công (earth god) something. Some like they were born for the dead people. 

Interviewer [00:27:49] Oh, okay. 

Quang Pham [00:28:55] Nó có vàng mã (it has joss paper). And that's that in Vietnamese: vàng mã (joss paper). So we bought them. I thought that well, that's the same in Vietnamese. Almost the same: thủ công and thổ công. Thủ công is manly and thổ công is earth god, it says same things about it. So everybody in classic kind of funny. Well, we said its color paper and then there was something else for the dead people. But anyway I was there for less than a year and the situation in Vietnam start. You know, the Communist starting fighting everywhere. And we have some relatives in France and they say that well the North Vietnam at the time, the French and the nationalism may not last, because the Communists of Vietnam get some help from Chinese and Russia. And so we better move to the south. So then we went south. So the second immigration. 

Interviewer [00:29:02] Yes. Where in the south? 

Quang Pham [00:29:05] In Saigon. Saigon. It's the second migration and then the third one. We flew from you know, Saigon to Arkansas. Oklahoma. Yeah, so I go through all three migrations. So I have a lot of those things. 

Interviewer [00:29:28] So you got to Saigon, what was that like? 

Quang Pham [00:29:31] What did you say. 

Interviewer [00:29:31] When you then got to Saigon? What was that like? What was Saigon like? 

Quang Pham [00:29:38] It's a new world. Because we never saw the country with a lot of electricity and a cinema and restaurants and people and free people and a lot of traffic, cars and motorcycle. I told you there a story when I got to Hanoi, because at that time, it's still peaceful. And there a lot of car, not as many as in the south, but at least there are a lot of the cars and truck and I thought it's kind of funny why the car running so fast. So I keep looking on the street on the time, I said well and they stay there for hours and its a different kind of car and truck going by because that is the first time we saw those car and motorcycle and cinema and that sort of thing. So everything new to me. Kind of funny. 

Interviewer [00:30:37] So you stayed in Saigon until you left. 

Quang Pham [00:30:40] Yes. 

Interviewer [00:30:40] For America. 

Quang Pham [00:30:42] Yes. 

Interviewer [00:30:42] Yes. And what year did you leave for America. 

Quang Pham [00:30:46] In 1975. 

Interviewer [00:30:48] In 1975,so there's a lot that happened in between. 

Quang Pham [00:30:52] And that's my growing up souvenir most of the time in Saigon, not in Hanoi and not in Thanh Hóa because I was so young. But before the exodus, migration from the South Vietnam to, USA. I got a scholarship with the USAID. 

Interviewer [00:31:20] Can you tell us what is USAID stand for? 

Quang Pham [00:31:23] That is the agency for International Development? Most of the, countries in the world, a small country or develop already. Developing country. They like to hear about that name because they brought a lot of supplies, milk, and medicine to help the country assistance such like Vietnam. I went to school in Saigon. High school as well as in college. So I chose the civil engineering school. And there's one like a subbranch, a sub major or minor, is environment and I was interested in environment. So after I graduate from school, I work for City of Saigon and take care of the environment problem for the city. So USA have some program try to clean up the city, so they have some scholarship. So when I work for city of Saigon and the city of Saigon recommend me to send me to the U.S. in 1971. So I got my master degree from OU, and that's another reason why I stay in Oklahoma because I was student of OU. 

Interviewer [00:33:01] Oh, okay. 

Quang Pham [00:33:02] So I got in 1971, I got my master and I went back to Vietnam in 1972. 

Interviewer [00:33:11] But you had to go back. 

Quang Pham [00:33:14] Yeah, because we got scholarship from the, U.S., and then we make a commitment to come back and help, to, improve the condition of the of the city. So I came back in 1972. I come back to Vietnam and work for the city. And then I- we got drafted. Everybody have, you know, got drafted. Even you working for the government, you still have to to join the army one way or the other. So.

Interviewer [00:33:47] Can I just ask when you went for the scholarship, it was 1971 and then you had to go back in 1972. 

Quang Pham [00:33:55] Right. 

Interviewer [00:33:56] In that one year when you came back, had Vietnam changed a lot for you? 

Quang Pham [00:34:01] No. 

Interviewer [00:34:01] So it was almost the same. 

Quang Pham [00:34:03] Yeah. 

Interviewer [00:34:03] Oh, so okay. 

Quang Pham [00:34:04] Yeah, because within a year or two that make the change and actually the South Vietnam stayed all the way until 1965. And a lot of prosperity, in all facets, economy, social, education, cultural, arts, everything, you know, just bring up and everything is prosperous. That's it. 

Interviewer [00:34:38] And you got drafted when you came back? 

Quang Pham [00:34:41] Yes, I came back in 1970. Let's see. Actually, I got drafted before that. 

Interviewer [00:34:53] Oh, okay. Before the scholarship? 

Quang Pham [00:34:55] Yeah. 

Interviewer [00:34:56] Okay. 

Quang Pham [00:34:56] And. Yeah, that's why I got drafted in 19. I was. I graduated from the engineering school in 1966, and I got drafted in 1967. So I went to the reserve officer in Thủ Đức, reserve officer School. I got training for nine months or so, maybe five months. And then they went to the course of engineers later on and become an instructor at that course of engineering school. So in 1969, I made a request. Because after a minimum of certain number of years that you would be able to request for transferring or something. And at that time they call special mission. They. And that's what's it's called. Because they need the city of Saigon for the public works or for environment. They request the army or the Department of Defense to send these engineers back to work for the city. So 1969. So I spend about two years in the Army. 

Interviewer [00:36:23] Okay. Were you out in the field in combat? 

Quang Pham [00:36:27] Not really, because I was, like, instructor at the civil, at the course of engineer school. However, I don't know you know about 1968 offensive. You heard about it? 

Interviewer [00:36:41] Tet Offensive. 

Quang Pham [00:36:42] Tet Offensive. I was stationed in that course of engineer school. 

Interviewer [00:36:49] Tell me what you remember. 

Quang Pham [00:36:51] And then the communitist went over. Ran over that location because that's in High Mountain, you know. Not in a mountain, but being in high ground that they they can control a city that is in Bình Dương. And that I was in that compound. And they came in, and then we got most of the people there, the, the course of engineers. And and they are not, proffessional fighters, you know, so we got some of the help from the fifth Infantry Division and we got some help from the American's course of engineer nearby. So that's why they plotted against them. And the, communists could not take over that compound. And that was in 1968. But after that in 1969, I was sent back to the place that I used to work in 1969. So in 1970, I applied for the scholarship, and I got study in 1971 and came back in 1972. So, yes. And then I got drafted before. 

Interviewer [00:38:13] Okay. But when you came back in 72, 

Quang Pham [00:38:16] Yes. 

Interviewer [00:38:17] Did you go back to the Army? 

Quang Pham [00:38:19] No.

Interviewer [00:38:20] Okay. 

Quang Pham [00:38:20] No. Because once they send you back to your own office, you don't have to go back to the army. Unless the war become tragic or serious. And they may call you back. But, no. But you still be in reserve. 

Interviewer [00:38:37] Okay. 

Quang Pham [00:38:37] I still have now promote like first lieutenant or something. I still have that rank, but I don't have to to go back. 

Interviewer [00:38:46] Yeah. 

Quang Pham [00:38:46] Yeah. 

Interviewer [00:38:47] And did you have any family members that were drafted as well, like relatives or aunts? 

Quang Pham [00:38:55] Everybody. 

Interviewer [00:38:55] Everybody.

Quang Pham [00:38:55] Everybody from the age of maybe 18 or 20 up to like 40. Everybody have to join. And it depends on your education if you only have the, graduate from high school and then you go to. If you have high school graduated, you know, you can go to the officer school. But if you have a college degree, you most likely you go to officer level training. It's different from the draft here in this country. They depend on education level and you go to.

Interviewer [00:39:49] How was your family surviving in 1972, in Saigon? They were still in Saigon? Like your mom, dad and sisters. 

Quang Pham [00:39:58] Yeah. Yeah. We were still were living in Saigon from the time that we- Well, they are from the north, from Hanoi, when they're in 1952 or 1953. We stay there until 1975. My family stay in Vietnam for long time. 

Interviewer [00:40:26] What business did they do in Saigon in 1972? 

Quang Pham [00:40:30] My mother had a small grocery store, a small one. And we sold, we do some- But, you know, my mother she's when like a landlord don't have much to do. She didn't have to do much of anything. But then because a situation we migrant and we don't have much money and she has some education, but mostly like a Chinese kind of thing. So she has to get a small place in in the marketplace because in marketplaces though let's you have a some small business and my mother has like a place there. So, she sells some materials. I don't know, hàng vải (fabric goods), bán vải (selling fabric).

Interviewer [00:41:29] Like fabric. 

Quang Pham [00:41:30]  Fabric. Yeah, fabric. And that sort of thing for a while and after that she got some money to open a small grocery store. 

Interviewer [00:41:42] And with your father still alive? 

Quang Pham [00:41:44] Yeah. No, no, he passed away. 

Interviewer [00:41:47] He had passed away already?

Quang Pham [00:41:50] And then my mother and so passed away. So when we migrate to USA just with my wife and two children. 

Interviewer [00:41:58] Okay, so your parents were already -

Quang Pham [00:42:01] Passed away. 

Interviewer [00:42:01] Can I ask when you returned to Vietnam in 1972? At that time, did you think that the South would lose the war? Like, were you are already thinking that way?

Quang Pham [00:42:15] We didn't. We don't think that way because we had some U.S. Army, you know, sent a lot of, assistance, economics assistance, as well as army. And then the Vietnam became very prosperous at that time, but the political situation in the USA also impact the war in Vietnam because people here didn't want to continue on, you know, put a lot of money in a far away country. So the public demand that, you know, USA should not do it anymore. In the meantime, the communist regime, like Russia, China, North Korea, once they decide to do something that and they continue on doing that. So on the one side they tried their best do it and on the other side they think twice. It's got everything in doubt in the eyes of the American public. So until the end, almost. The first part of 1975 and they start or the communist Vietnam start have some tank infiltrate into the South. That's the first time that they use a tank. Otherwise, they just have small arms and everything else and they start fighting in Ban Mê Thuột. That is in a high land area. And it's fighting in Huế and then on the province in the in the center. So anyway, until like the last part of 1974 and the first part of 1975. We felt like the war may- We may lose the war. 

Interviewer [00:44:34] You started to have doubt. 

Quang Pham [00:44:35] Yes. We have some relatives in France and some other countries and that is free press. So they more or less know the international politics that they said that sooner or later we'll lose. 

Interviewer [00:44:58] So your family in France was sharing this information with you? 

Quang Pham [00:45:03] Yes. 

Interviewer [00:45:04] Was it through letters or phones? Like, how were you receiving the information? 

Quang Pham [00:45:10] By letter and sometimes by phone. 

Interviewer [00:45:13] Yeah. 

Quang Pham [00:45:13] But most of the time is letter. Yeah. And mail. 

Interviewer [00:45:17] So when you started to doubt what was going through your mind?

Quang Pham [00:45:24] I think that we have to leave, you know? We have to leave one way or the other. And, we have twice that we have to do that. So the third one which is not so tough like others because went from Thanh Hóa to Hanoi and then from Hanoi to Saigon and then another one then to USA. 

Interviewer [00:45:53] So tell me more about your third migration, your final. 

Quang Pham [00:45:59] The final one, like I said, I got lucky enough to get on,U.S. Air Force flight out of Vietnam. 

Interviewer [00:46:11] But how do you get on it? 

Quang Pham [00:46:15] Kind of make the story short. I graduated from OU I got my master degree and a cousin of mine, she's working for an engineering, American engineering, in Saigon. She said like a secretary or that. And I talked to her. I said, well, we are in desperate situation. And the communists always consider that who ever graduated from the USA, he or she should be a CIA agent. So I told her, if we if we stay here and, you know, more or less they send me to their prison, prisoner camp, or maybe even worse, they may want to kill me. So, she introduced me to her boss, who's also an engineer, for American engineer. So I told him that, you know the  situation it is very worse for me. And he sympathize with our situation. So he said that since you are engineer, I would consider you as one of the employee of the company. So he gave me ID card, everything else, working for the company. So I think that the company is called DM and JM. I think the headquarters in San Francisco, and they working in water supply and wastewater, and that is my field. So, he said at that time, the USA has a policy to save the employees working for American companies and so then I got to go with that. 

Interviewer [00:48:22] Do you know that company did that for a lot of other people? 

Quang Pham [00:48:27] Not really, no. 

Interviewer [00:48:29] Your aunt pulled a favor. 

Quang Pham [00:48:31] I don't think so unless the other person could be graduated from USA. 

Interviewer [00:48:37] Yeah. 

Quang Pham [00:48:38] That the whole thing. That they cannot help any others, unless he's graduated from USA. 

Interviewer [00:48:47] But they did a favor. 

Quang Pham [00:48:49] Yes. 

Interviewer [00:48:50] Yes. 

Quang Pham [00:48:50] For me. 

Interviewer [00:48:51] Yes. And did you get to meet them? Because you went to Arkansas, you didn't go to San Francisco, right? 

Quang Pham [00:48:58] No. 

Interviewer [00:48:58] Yeah. 

Quang Pham [00:48:59] Because that time, I actually didn't know where their headquarter is, but later on I know that's in San Francisco and I don't know whether the engineer that who I came in and talked to him. He's still with that company or not. So after that they said that well they already, you know, give me a favor. And, just like my cousin, she went to work for University of UCLA. And then I came back to OU and I got my former advisor, professor, and he gave me research associate or something. And then after that, I got- since I got the degree from OU, so I got a job with the State Department of Environmental quality. 

Interviewer [00:50:00] In Oklahoma? 

Quang Pham [00:50:01] In Oklahoma City. 

Interviewer [00:50:02] So you are already familiar with, because you studied in the United States, you were already familiar. But you said you had a wife and kids. 

Quang Pham [00:50:10] Yes. 

Interviewer [00:50:11] And how old was your, were your kids? 

Quang Pham [00:50:15] My daughter at the time, she was born in 1970, so she is five years old, and I have a son two years old. 

Interviewer [00:50:25] So what was it like for your wife and kids to arrive in America? Do you remember? 

Quang Pham [00:50:31] My wife is like a new world for her. 

Interviewer [00:50:35] What was her reaction? First day. 

Quang Pham [00:50:39] Well, everyone feel we're lucky to get to this free country. And she knows that I got a degree here from the USA and more or less I would got a job, you know, in professional. So we're thanking God, Buddha that help us to come to this country. But that's why the children they don't know you know what's going on. 

Interviewer [00:51:06] Too young? 

Quang Pham [00:51:07] They're too young to know. 

Interviewer [00:51:08] Was it hard for your wife to adjust? 

Quang Pham [00:51:14] To a certain way because she's not good fluent in English at the time. And this is a new culture. And at that time we have some friends, you know, living not very far from each other and we normally get in during the weekend. And, you know, I have some talk and discussion. And so we kind of, don't miss the country that much because we have some friends around and share all the feelings, and that sort thing. 

Interviewer [00:51:51] What was it like raising your children in Oklahoma? When you think about how you were raised in Vietnam. 

Quang Pham [00:52:02] Yes. Since I was here so I know what the education public school system is good. And yes, and they work very hard. And just like most of the Asian parents always push their children to work hard in school if you want to get a good future. That's what we explain to them. And I did. 

Interviewer [00:52:31] So did you want to raise them more traditionally Vietnamese or you wanted them to adapt to American culture? 

Quang Pham [00:52:38] We got half and half and I can see that the migrants, just like we are, we got the best of both world. Eastern culture and Western culture and we will select which one is good from the Eastern culture and which one is good from Western culture. And we caught it well with that way. But you know some family they don't have that open view. So we are lucky to get both. Of the culture of the both side, the east and the west. 

Interviewer [00:53:18] Do you have grandchildren now? 

Quang Pham [00:53:20] Yes, we do have grandchildren. 

Interviewer [00:53:21] Do they speak Vietnamese? 

Quang Pham [00:53:25] A little bit, a little bit, but they want to learn Vietnamese anyway. Yes. 

Interviewer [00:53:30] I have children too, that don't speak Vietnamese very well. How does that make you feel as a grandparent? Do you communicate with them mostly in English? 

Quang Pham [00:53:42] I normally talk with them in English, but my wife sometime talk in English and Vietnamese.

Interviewer [00:53:53] How does it make you feel that the younger generations of Vietnamese in America don't speak the language as well? 

Quang Pham [00:54:03] Could you put the question again? 

Interviewer [00:54:05] Yeah. So your grandchildren, you know, are still learning Vietnamese. Are they young?

Quang Pham [00:54:10] Yeah. They are in college now. 

Interviewer [00:54:13] Okay. So I'm just curious. How does it make you feel to know that two generations later, living in America, but they don't speak the Vietnamese language as well? Does that make you feel happy, sad, or are you okay with it? 

Quang Pham [00:54:34] I think it's okay with us, but I still encourage them to learn Vietnamese because that is another culture, and that's good for them if they know both culture so they can pick which one is the best to use. So we're in the country that we can chose both Eastern and Western. One of the things I blame this free country at some time is too much freedom. And the children sometime don't know, they cannot control themselves because we cannot blame them. Blame us. And they go that way. And some family they raise their children in such a way they become successful. But some of them could not. Because we don't know how to adapt to the new culture. 

Interviewer [00:55:33] So you arrived here in 1975. What was Oklahoma like and how has it changed? 

Quang Pham [00:55:39] In Oklahoma? There are a lot of things change, especially in Oklahoma City. There are a lot of improvements, a lot of new buildings, high rise, and they have a professional basketball team. And a lot of things have been changed. 

Interviewer [00:55:59] How has the Vietnamese community changed in Oklahoma City? 

Quang Pham [00:56:06] I think most of them, become successful or they have better housing and some of the children successful in their career. 

Interviewer [00:56:24] Are there a lot more businesses? 

Quang Pham [00:56:25] And some of them are doing businesses. But most likely the Vietnamese, Chinese prefer to work in business like a restaurant or grocery store. But other Vietnamese appear just like us, they prefer that the children get college degree and work in profession. But most of them doing very well. 

Interviewer [00:57:01] Has the Asian district and Vietnamese business has grown a lot since you first arrived here?

Quang Pham [00:57:06] Oh, yes. Yeah. Before that area, that's northwest 23rd, that area and Classon Boulevard up to 36. That is the area that most of the Vietnamese refugees stay in, because some of them, maybe more than 50% of them, are Catholics. They want to stay nearby the church. There's a church on northwest 32nd. So they say around this area. But now, maybe 50% of them move to the South because they have a larger area and the cost of housing in the South it's not that expensive like the North, but some of them, they get some housing in Edmond. That is even better than Oklahoma City. 

Interviewer [00:58:03] If you think about the Vietnamese community in Oklahoma, what are you most proud of? 

Quang Pham [00:58:11] I probably most proud of is the success of our children and then the prosperity of this community. So those are the two things. 

Interviewer [00:58:32] What do you love most about the community here? 

Quang Pham [00:58:36] The community here is very friendly. And, they willing to help a lot. But I can see that society, including Oklahoma, has changed. For the last ten years, they have changed. They are not that hospitable or friendly like they were before because society have changed. A lot of bad things happen, so they cannot trust the others. Therefore, they are not willing to help like it was back in 1975. That is almost 50 years. Yeah, half a century, so a lot of things change and society, America's society also changed. 

Interviewer [00:59:32] So has your grandchildren or your children know about some of the background of your story?  

Quang Pham [00:59:39] Yes. I told them. 

Interviewer [00:59:42] And your grandchildren as well? 

Quang Pham [00:59:43] Yes. 

Interviewer [00:59:45] What do you hope that they take away from your story? 

Quang Pham [00:59:52] I think most of them that they probably focus more in their profession rather than the culture or how the Vietnamese community is going to be. So they focus more in their profession and then they try to excel on that. But some of them, also like you, some of this group Boat People, Vietnamese Boat People, and you would dedicated to something that is very lovable and respectful. As a matter of fact, I told Thuận that I'm not a boat people so that I may not be qualified to be interviewed. And some of them, think the same way. 

Interviewer [01:00:53] I know and I told him we welcome everyone's story. 

Quang Pham [01:00:56] But anyway. But, I know Thuận a lot so I said that's okay. But beside that I have a group here they call friends of Boat People SOS. I don't know if you heard of Boat People SOS and they headquarter in Virginia and Dr. Thăng.

Interviewer [01:01:20] Yes. 

Quang Pham [01:01:21] So I got a more or less a branch, a chapter of that. So, we raise funds to have BPF SOS to take care of the refugee in Thailand. And they went to Thailand a couple of times and visit the refugees. Because I was a refugee before, so I have a very attachment to that community. So that's why more or less, boat people oriented organization. So I feel like I need to be in this interview even that I am not a boat people. 

Interviewer [01:02:02]  No, I love listening to your story too, because I also think a lot of people think that the migration is only from Vietnam to the US, but your story you shared that you were a refugee in your own country. 

Quang Pham [01:02:17] That's right. 

Interviewer [01:02:17] And the migration. And a lot of people forget that there were families that had to keep moving and migrate in Vietnam before we were even forced to leave our country. I really am so thankful that you're here. And I just have one more question for you. Have you been back to Vietnam? 

Quang Pham [01:02:34] Yes. 

Interviewer [01:02:35] How many times? 

Quang Pham [01:02:37] Once. 

Interviewer [01:02:38] When was that? 

Quang Pham [01:02:41] I can see some things change. 

Interviewer [01:02:44] What year did you go back? Do you remember? 

Quang Pham [01:02:48] It has been maybe ten years ago. 

Interviewer [01:02:50] Okay. 

Quang Pham [01:02:52] At that time I came back to in Vietnam, there's a tradition that you need to visit the tomb of your father and your mother and that is the time I came back and see what's going on. 

Interviewer [01:03:07] How did you feel when you first came back? I mean, you'd been away for so long, right? 

Quang Pham [01:03:13] Yes. I've been away maybe 10 or 20 years before I got back. And I came back to to the house where I was born.

Interviewer [01:03:25] It was still there? 

Quang Pham [01:03:27] Yeah. The place is still there, but a lot of things changed. Like we have a big land like, maybe 3000ft² home, and they divide it into small space, and they even they give it to the Communist member or whatever it is. And we have a pond in front of that and we have a garden, flower garden, and everything change. And people make the small house everywhere. And I remember, this is a very interesting story, one of the guy who worked for us, like he's helping in the field work. He's working in the field. And he listened to some of the Communist member. And he almost want to join the people. That against us and, you know, try to like, they said our these, guy is not this is not good people and everything else and make situation worse. But he did not do that bad. So he was given a piece of land, maybe hundred square feet or maybe two square feet. And these two here still stay there. But he the same thing. He's still poor like he was before. And I remember I asked him, do you know that you got some stone paving stone that we have at the house? And he said yes. Where did you put that? He showed me in the back his house it still stay there. 

Interviewer [01:05:23] And this time still there? 

Quang Pham [01:05:25] Yeah. And he apparently got the the stone, bring it from the alley that going to our house and put it in the back. So probably he may want to sell it at some time. Yeah. So anyway I told him that yeah we, we are friends anyway. We people. So I gave him some money but I don't know what, how he feels but it is the war is over. And people is people. He's still poor. He's still the same like he was, not like the communist propaganda saying that everybody be the same and everything else. I don't know whether he regret what happened or not, but its like once in a lifetime that meeting the enemy, not a real enemy, but a sort of. But I just, you know, that's life. 

Interviewer [01:06:24] Yeah. Do you think you'll go back again? 

Quang Pham [01:06:30] I may, I'm not so sure. 

Interviewer [01:06:33] It's changed a lot. 

Quang Pham [01:06:34] Oh, yeah. At least in the city. And they know how to play a game between the U.S. and China. Yeah. 

Interviewer [01:06:46] Yes. 

Quang Pham [01:06:48] They are very clever in that. But one thing that you cannot trust, the communist people. The Communist Party members. They can say everything if you want to hear from them. They do it, but they never do it the way they say.